Breeding Season 2015

Hinfin
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by Hinfin » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:13 am

Hi Kit!

I have been thinking about what you said and your reference to the german shepard which is a dog very known to me and common to our country as is the dutch shepard by the way.

It seems to me that anyone actvely breeding needs to learn/know his/her bloodline. If one has the blessing of continuing an existing bloodline and the teachings of a master this is different then learning to make a bloodline of your own. In goldfish this is different then in dogs, you cant breed a goldfish, you have to make it from a tiny but fertilized egg.

The eye for detail........ Do not tempt me on discussing this subject because i am on a 'have to make due with what i have' fase in breeding. This is the same as what you are describing. But you allready know and i am still just observing and noting anything in the development of fry.

I work with people every day, many people from very different classes. I can tell instantly by seeing their instinctive response to my presence how their first reaction to me will be, to cut the story short, i also know how to make them my friend if i decide to do so.

I do know there is no way back once you see your fish reflecting what you think is perfect....... :ugeek:

kitsilano
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by kitsilano » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:31 am

Image

Just a small update and share what happened to the above fish. Early last month, I brought it to Bkk and left it with a friend hoping that the fish in another player's hand will do better. It did and there was much learning and ideas that was thrown forth why the fish swim with a drag.....

Image

If we look closely...the side view is quite good, but if one look at the underside...there is a noticeable long anal fins and spreaded quite far apart...that roughly sum up the cause of the "drag" in the swim. In Thailand and of course with tutelage from the Jap Masters, they can either cut and recountoured the anal fin and/or they massage the fish whether anal fins or tail to improve the swimming. After a few weeks of work, the fish swimming did improve dramatically(that was what I was told)

Last week, Oom my Thai friend messaged me and said he will like take the fish for the 3rd Season All Thai Ranchu Comp. Thailand Ranchu Club organise 4 Comps a year...Season 1,2 & 3 every quarter and the final Comp is their All Thai Annual Comp in November(after the All Japan Comp) and usually held last week of Novemeber.

This Singapore bred was entered in the Small Tosai Class and class size was 45 Bowls(45 particpants) Just a note for the 3 Tosai classes, entries always more than a 100 fishes and competition is the hottest in this category. She got a "C" and was graded in the front 20 bowls. Grade A is the best while D is the lowest...so that roughly sum up the journey of this fish thus far.
Nature and wisdom never are at strife.

kitsilano
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by kitsilano » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:38 pm

wolverine wrote:Hi kitsilano,

Interesting point about "animal feel" and "instinctive feel". It is quite interesting to see from that perspective.
To me, i feel that we are very much governed by emotion. Which emotion is linked to attachment and judgement.

Coming back to goldfish, i am not sure, is it instinctive or experiences, there are some fish, that i can identify their potential. Like you said, i guess everyone can develop such "instinct".
This is going to be long and boring...my apologies but hopefully can share and we learn together.

[glow=red]"Emotion"[/glow] is the [shadow=blue]physical response[/shadow]to an external stimuli, while[glow=red]"Feeling"[/glow] is the[shadow=blue]mental association and reaction[/shadow] to an emotion from past experiences/observation. [glow=red]"Emotion"[/glow] and[glow=red]"Feeling"[/glow] are like the two sides of the same coin...inter related and most of the time very confusing and misunderstood.

For illustration....

Let say you stay in a home with an open front yard and one morning while coming out to retrieve the morning paper...you was suddenly confronted by a huge aggressive dog...growling and snarling at you...your immediate physical response[glow=red](Emotion)[/glow] is fear...body tightened up as your adrenaline scent emit fear and your body language becomes defensive. Suddenly out from the front door your daughter suddenly darted out hoping to play in the garden....that is the game changer as [glow=red]"Feeling"[/glow]takes over from the [glow=red]"Emotion"[/glow] state of you...you [shadow=blue]"mentally"[/shadow] know the amount of damage the aggressive dog can inflict on your daughter...your body language from a defensive posture suddenly turn aggressive and front the dog so as to protect yourself and your daughter. Hope this is an easily understood illustration of emotion and feeling.

To do well in ranchu we must cultivate the instinctive feel for the fish and keep emotion in check. As Instinctive feel" is a mental thingy...its only can get better and better if we work on it...most ranchu players practice this "FEEL" but it is very hard to put it down in words....I am trying but maybe I just confuse forummers/hobbyists further...my sincere apologies.
Nature and wisdom never are at strife.

kitsilano
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by kitsilano » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:44 pm

Hinfin wrote:Hi Kit!

I have been thinking about what you said and your reference to the german shepard which is a dog very known to me and common to our country as is the dutch shepard by the way.
:
Yes bro HInfin...I am very aware of the Dutch Shepherd....Hollandse Herdershond, but I am only into German Shepherd and one of the great old kennel that I am aware and have seen their dogs in Singapore is Estherlager Kennel and that was in the early 1980's....

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.a ... ger.com%2f
Nature and wisdom never are at strife.

kitsilano
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by kitsilano » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:28 pm

Hinfin wrote:Hi Kit!

I have been thinking about what you said and your reference to the german shepard which is a dog very known to me and common to our country as is the dutch shepard by the way.

It seems to me that anyone actvely breeding needs to learn/know his/her bloodline. If one has the blessing of continuing an existing bloodline and the teachings of a master this is different then learning to make a bloodline of your own. In goldfish this is different then in dogs, you cant breed a goldfish, you have to make it from a tiny but fertilized egg.

The eye for detail........ Do not tempt me on discussing this subject because i am on a 'have to make due with what i have' fase in breeding. This is the same as what you are describing. But you allready know and i am still just observing and noting anything in the development of fry.

I do know there is no way back once you see your fish reflecting what you think is perfect....... :ugeek:
Bro Hinfin...this is just my personal opinions....

Japanese ranchu will always have that mystique aura around it bcos this ranchu hobby culture is shrouded and deeply rooted in Japanese culture which in its beginning stage was very feudalistic and hierachy driven. IMHO much is hidden and only shared amongst close asscociates with how much shared depending on their hierachy status. As times went by and ranchu hobby opening up, we have Jap ranchu all over the world now and the standard of keeping/breeding improve dramatically(outside of Japan).

I read what you are trying to put across and can understand your predicament as the quality of fish that you get might not be of as good quality as you ideally hope for...don't be disappointed....don't be disheartened....bcos of Goldfish forums and even on Facebook the ranchu world has become even smaller and there are many ranchu players posting their fishes on the net. Engage them in conversation and you will be surprised how networking can get you much info and it is this continous ranchu education from the net that one can improve oneself.

I feel one need to improve knowledge first on how to breed well and how to raise the fries well...never mind the quality of the parent fishes...get to do the nitty gritty in raising a few spawns and learn raise them well. Breeding is an acquired skill and the better you get at it, the more confident you gather. Yes they are from eggs but given the same set of eggs from same spawn, different breeders can raise the spawn looking differently.

Getting better fishes and acquiring better genes is something very dependent on one's network and of course it is better to breed from as good parental fishes that one can lay their hands upon.
Nature and wisdom never are at strife.

Hinfin
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by Hinfin » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:19 am

Bro Kit,

I will be thinking about this and am willing to discuss. But the flip side will allways be your personal input in this hobby. Yes, the dutch share a rich history with japan and with indochina, not all good i admit. But when gold, never rush and allways stake your claim....

I only have one working farmdog by the way, breeding shepards is not an interesting hobby to me because i have no sheep! :mrgreen:

Hinfin
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by Hinfin » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:12 am

kitsilano wrote:
Hinfin wrote:Hi Kit!

I have been thinking about what you said and your reference to the german shepard which is a dog very known to me and common to our country as is the dutch shepard by the way.
:
Yes bro HInfin...I am very aware of the Dutch Shepherd....Hollandse Herdershond, but I am only into German Shepherd and one of the great old kennel that I am aware and have seen their dogs in Singapore is Estherlager Kennel and that was in the early 1980's....

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.a ... ger.com%2f
Maybe not of interest but maybe it expresses how this ´flipside´ and ´feeling´ in terms of the history of german shepards to a breeder of shepards can develop.

http://www.saarlooswolfhonden.nl/index.php/nieuws

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBsT4xNHXes

Hinfin
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by Hinfin » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:53 am


Hinfin
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by Hinfin » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:10 pm

kitsilano wrote:
To do well in ranchu we must cultivate the instinctive feel for the fish and keep emotion in check. As Instinctive feel" is a mental thingy...its only can get better and better if we work on it...most ranchu players practice this "FEEL" but it is very hard to put it down in words....I am trying but maybe I just confuse forummers/hobbyists further...my sincere apologies.
I have been thinking about this and all i can come up with is that breeding is like baking pancakes. If you think about what you are doing and not act with convidence they will end up on the floor when you flip them. When you act too convidently and act without thinking they will stick to the ceiling!

Another thing that keeps filling my memory about gf and koi keeping are the years i helped out at a japanese koi importer and lfs keeper when i was young. Some times he told me things like 'this is key to this and that is key to that aspect when i asked him what he was adding to the ponds and the food' and other times he was just sitting next to the pond and saying 'did you see that one?' during feeding.

kitsilano
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by kitsilano » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:20 am

Thank you bro Hinfin for all your inputs. Very interesting to read your observation about your koi importer and how he goes about his keeping chores. Yes observation and some critical thinking sure helps improve our fishkeeping skills.
Nature and wisdom never are at strife.

Hinfin
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by Hinfin » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:09 am

Bro Kit,

I can see in your ranchu you have limited space but very strong bloodline, this is what i instinctively feel and my first thought about them.

I also have a self bred ranchu with very strong back which had the same problem as the ranchu with anal fin swimming problems, i clipped one of his anal fins which never grew back. One would expect it could cause caudal imbalance but it never did. This is even more a problem with longer tail oranda, you really have to select one fintype because there is too much difference if outcrossed.

Another ranchu, during spawning, got one pectoral fin chewed off by a male, this fin grew back fully, but she developed a caudal imbalance.....

About fishkeeping and instinctive feel you know this is a balance. When having thousands of fry this is keeping, when final selection has to be made this is totally an instinctive feel which devides a student from a master.....

The fish are a blessing. It is the balance or zen that we need. At least, this is what i have learned.

Good fortune wishes.

kitsilano
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by kitsilano » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:48 pm

Image

Image

Image

These are the tail end pieces of Breeding 2015. Breeding Season 2016 starting soon and time to get excited again.
Nature and wisdom never are at strife.

wolverine
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by wolverine » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:04 pm

Good fish for tosai competition!

Happy New Year Kitsilano.

How are you lately, always wanted to keep some of your bbr, but just could not find the time to do so.
How do you rate your latest breeding?

kitsilano
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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by kitsilano » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:24 am

Thank you bro Wolverine for your good wishes and hope you also have a fantastic year ahead. No worry if you want and finally have time for some bbrs...as long as I am breeding, there are bbrs available...breeding season just started.

To me these are just decent junior tosai.....think many breeders in Sg can breed this quality with ease.
Nature and wisdom never are at strife.

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Re: Breeding Season 2015

Post by wolverine » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:12 pm

Yes, you are right, with so much information out there, many hobbyists are able to do their home breeding program.

Ultimately, experience do count. With more experiences, the higher chances the outcome would be better.
And what separate between master/expert breeder from the average breeder is the consistency to breed new batch of fish with similar quality.

i always admire hobbyist that venture into breeding program.

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