World of Butterfly

crossback
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Post by crossback » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:53 pm

LauLanChu wrote:Few dollars I will buy.
if 3 eye leh? this pcs look like a 3rd eye on the head...haha
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ally24
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Post by ally24 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:07 pm

how come one 'arm' missing
hahaha
or is it poor photography :disagree
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nygold
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Post by nygold » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:37 pm

how come one 'arm' missing
hahaha
The "ARM" as you call it is just tucked under it's head.
You can see a piece of it sticking out from under it's eye.

This fish to me is very unique and I personally would
be happy to have this little guy swimming around in my tank.

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Post by wolverine » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:45 am

Norman wrote:
wolverine wrote:
SpaXx wrote: saw this unique colour beauty from other where. source : lanshou.net
Very nice fish!!! But a bit more 'fat' than 'stout'.
Nevertheless, it a wonderful fish.
Nice, can the Thai breeders produce this colour and pattern?
This fish is in the state of colour transient, in my opinion. It is a brown fish lossing its brown, changing to a white fish.

If given the right guiding, i'm sure the Thai breeders can reproduce it. That's why the Thai ranchu (top-view) is good as the Japanese ranchu.

Norman
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Post by Norman » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:05 pm

wolverine wrote:
Norman wrote:
wolverine wrote:
Very nice fish!!! But a bit more 'fat' than 'stout'.
Nevertheless, it a wonderful fish.
Nice, can the Thai breeders produce this colour and pattern?
This fish is in the state of colour transient, in my opinion. It is a brown fish lossing its brown, changing to a white fish.

If given the right guiding, i'm sure the Thai breeders can reproduce it. That's why the Thai ranchu (top-view) is good as the Japanese ranchu.
You sure?

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Post by wolverine » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:14 am

Norman wrote:
wolverine wrote:
Norman wrote:
Nice, can the Thai breeders produce this colour and pattern?
This fish is in the state of colour transient, in my opinion. It is a brown fish lossing its brown, changing to a white fish.

If given the right guiding, i'm sure the Thai breeders can reproduce it. That's why the Thai ranchu (top-view) is good as the Japanese ranchu.
You sure?
Sure in??
If you are referring to the changing of colour, yes i'm quite sure. The only way to keep that colour is that the fish in under a master hand who know how to control (maintain) the water parameter so that it would not 'excit' the fish to change its colour.

i have visited a Thai farm, the breeder specialize in dragon-eye. He is able to breed reasonably good quality dragon-eye, but humbly he said he still need time to achieve what the chinese has achieve so far for dragon-eye variety. That leads to my above comment, if some master from China were to guide them, they will be good. Thai are fast learner. :)

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Post by Norman » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:38 am

wolverine wrote:
Norman wrote:
wolverine wrote:
This fish is in the state of colour transient, in my opinion. It is a brown fish lossing its brown, changing to a white fish.

If given the right guiding, i'm sure the Thai breeders can reproduce it. That's why the Thai ranchu (top-view) is good as the Japanese ranchu.
You sure?
Sure in??
If you are referring to the changing of colour, yes i'm quite sure. The only way to keep that colour is that the fish in under a master hand who know how to control (maintain) the water parameter so that it would not 'excit' the fish to change its colour.

i have visited a Thai farm, the breeder specialize in dragon-eye. He is able to breed reasonably good quality dragon-eye, but humbly he said he still need time to achieve what the chinese has achieve so far for dragon-eye variety. That leads to my above comment, if some master from China were to guide them, they will be good. Thai are fast learner. :)
Thanks bro Wolf for the elaboration. You are a master of Butterfly. Can show photos of your Butterfly collection.

Norman
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Post by Norman » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:40 am

HNLim wrote:
crossback wrote:
SpaXx wrote: good stuff must share right? :disagree
agree....make all of us drool
but locally not easy to find such butterfly
Not only locally but also in Chine. This is one in a billion. You don't find them showing photos of several hundreds together, for that matter even 5 pieces together.
Bro Wolf what is your opinion?

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Post by wolverine » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:29 pm

Norman wrote:
HNLim wrote:Not only locally but also in Chine. This is one in a billion. You don't find them showing photos of several hundreds together, for that matter even 5 pieces together.
Bro Wolf what is your opinion?
i believe what HNLim is trying to highlight is that a good or 'near perfect' goldfish are hard to find (come by) regardless where we are. And i fully agree with that.

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Post by wolverine » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:48 pm

Norman wrote: Thanks bro Wolf for the elaboration. You are a master of Butterfly. Can show photos of your Butterfly collection.
There are many local hobbyists that are very good in butterfly. For me, i just happen to know a little bit more than beginner.

Instead of just sharing photo, i decided to share one of my experience with dragon eye. It is easy to find a dragon eye with horizontally spread tail that make them look like a typical butterfly breed.

We know panda losses its black easily. So the chinese add the orange gene to the panda variety, hopefully to stablize the black. Then i found some such panda with tail spread like a butterfly.

Image

Although i managed to groom body mass on the fish from 1 inch+ (left photo) to 4 inch+ (right photo), my grooming had failed.

Firstly... ...
i triggered so much grow on the body that the tail is not growing! As you can see from the photo, the tail remain small. Too small for the body, overall not balance. Such grooming method is better off for ranchu.

Secondly... ...
i was not able to keep the water at the right parameters which ended up the fish lossing its black (no more panda). It turns into red and than finally becoming completely white. It was a great lost, the fish was at 12-red (very valued) pattern at one stage.

The only successful thing is that the eyes remains healthy throughout.

Back to the topic of butterfly, these dragon-eye is what i call 'fake' butterfly which can be spotted easily every now and then in a pool of dragon eye.

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Post by LauLanChu » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:28 am

Thanks for the unselfish sharing. So how is the 'true' butterfly come about?
LauLanChu
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Post by wolverine » Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:24 pm

Well, to start with, butterfly variety of course should be bred from a pair of 'true' butterfly. The parent should not be a dragon eye.

Although butterfly can be develop from dragon eye from selective breeding, the initial stage of butterfly variety development, the breeding was focus on selecting a strong tail, while the protruding eyes were secondary.

Attached two photos,
One is a very old photo of my butterfly.
The other butterfly is not mine.

Image Image

i choose to post these 2 photos because it gives a very good illustrate of a 'true' butterfly. The key things to look out for is the shoulder bones (the first tail ray on the right and on the left) have to dive forwards.

From the photo you can see the shoulder bone stretch towards the pectoral fin. This gives the tail a full spread, forming a perfect shape of a butterfly's wing.

Another important factor the tail ray have to be strong (hard), that means when the fish swims the tail remain firm.

Although japanese ranchu and butterfly are meant for top view appreciation, the appreciation is very different. For ranchu, they have to be flexible. Close while swimming, open when stationary. That's why ranchu tail has to be small. As for butterfly tail, it has to be big and to maintain that large spread tail the ray has to be hard.

judge
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Post by judge » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:44 am

wolverine wrote:
Norman wrote: Thanks bro Wolf for the elaboration. You are a master of Butterfly. Can show photos of your Butterfly collection.
There are many local hobbyists that are very good in butterfly. For me, i just happen to know a little bit more than beginner.

Instead of just sharing photo, i decided to share one of my experience with dragon eye. It is easy to find a dragon eye with horizontally spread tail that make them look like a typical butterfly breed.

We know panda losses its black easily. So the chinese add the orange gene to the panda variety, hopefully to stablize the black. Then i found some such panda with tail spread like a butterfly.

Image

Although i managed to groom body mass on the fish from 1 inch+ (left photo) to 4 inch+ (right photo), my grooming had failed.

Firstly... ...
i triggered so much grow on the body that the tail is not growing! As you can see from the photo, the tail remain small. Too small for the body, overall not balance. Such grooming method is better off for ranchu.

Secondly... ...
i was not able to keep the water at the right parameters which ended up the fish lossing its black (no more panda). It turns into red and than finally becoming completely white. It was a great lost, the fish was at 12-red (very valued) pattern at one stage.

The only successful thing is that the eyes remains healthy throughout.

Back to the topic of butterfly, these dragon-eye is what i call 'fake' butterfly which can be spotted easily every now and then in a pool of dragon eye.
Wolverine - You said, you didn't have the right parameter in water which caused the fish to lose its color. Could you elaborate what is the right parameter and why it would cause the fish to lose its color?

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Post by wolverine » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:19 pm

judge wrote: Wolverine - You said, you didn't have the right parameter in water which caused the fish to lose its color. Could you elaborate what is the right parameter and why it would cause the fish to lose its color?
The hardness of the water and the temperature is important.
They have to be consistent.
When these parameters change or swing throughout the day, it tends to trigger the body to react. If we can prolong this change, long enough, once the fish reaches approximately 2 years old. They will become 'less' reactive towards the parameter change.

So the golden question what is the right parameters.
i wish i can answer you the exact value, unfortunately, i did not take down those information, passed to me. i did not treasure it back then. Regrets... ...

Go for 'softer' water. Acidic water would cause the change, if i'm not remember wrongly (the other way round!!!!).
As for the temperature, keep around 24 degree C. High temperature encourages the fish to feed, as the fish feed, it triggers change in its body, including colour pigment.

Please take these value with a pinch of salt.
Experiment along these guidelines, you might able to find the right value, it is really not so difficult. No hidden secret.

judge
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Post by judge » Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:31 pm

Thank you for your explanation Wolverine. It actually is very hard to keep hardness and temperature to be consistent at all times.

I love your butterflies. I couldn't find any resemble or close to your butterflies here.

I like small eyes round belly with short waist. Have you got any side view pics of your fish?

Also how hard is it for you to breed these fish naturally since they are almost blind.

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