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LauLanChu
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Post by LauLanChu » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:37 pm

From my understanding there is no blue colour in GF.
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Post by hermanto » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:37 pm

Well, surely I consider you all not as beginners, but masters. We know we have blue oranda which is a play of black coloration.


Maybe I should refine my question (or questions).

My intention: to understand the behavior of black coloration in its many occurences.

Background:
I have encountered black baby ranchu (grey/green/wild), thai black ranchu, not solid black in black ranchu, black moor, panda telescope, and blue oranda. It seems that the black color behaves differently in those fishes. (Or not?)

Questions:
How different is that behavior? Is the behavior of the black in panda telescope closer to the black in blue oranda or the black in black ranchu? Why are there different manifestation/behavior from the same pigmen?

If I understand this, the understanding might help me in creating a black and white ranchu or any other black and white goldfish other than panda telescope.

Do enlighten me, friends :)
Best regards. Hermanto
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Post by LauLanChu » Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:07 pm

You touch on a very tricky topic, black colour of GF. Let me see if I can give some inputs.

Primitive GF is greyish black and only through some mutation and selective breeding it gains its gold colour. GF youngs started with primitive colour and through a phase change mutation as they grow to reach its gold colour. Some fish remains as baby black for long. I supposed GF black is sort of reverse mutation to its original black, through some further enhacement like tanning and selective breeding. How black a GF will depend on the strength of the black gene through maybe years of engineering. Black moor black is very stable and even it fade it will turn brownish. Black ranchu of chinese is greyish due to upkeep. Black ranchu of Thai has layers of coated black through tanning and conditioning. Black of panda is temporarily baby black and in actual fact is a white fish. Black is always on surface of scales that make the fish look matt, but in actual fact they are not matt fish. The underlying scales could be matt or shinny. When the black go below the scales it looks blue and that is a different mutation.
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Post by hermanto » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:54 am

Thank you LLC. Your statements contain some assumptions (and maybe historical facts) which is interesting. I appreciate that.

I think we can conclude that in goldfish world of color, we have abundant knowledge of orange/red white fishes, both historical and technical knowledge. Lesser but not uncommon knowledge is in the black fish and calico. I consider them in the same level. Less common knowledge is of blue appearance, of how it happens, and of how it behaves. Even less common is of black and white coloration - this can be said of as a "rare" knowledge.

Your statements remind us that the first occurence of black coloration in history is in the black moor. This is a historical fact. Do we all agree?

And how did it occur? LLC said
I supposed GF black is sort of reverse mutation to its original black, through some further enhacement like tanning and selective breeding.
While we dont know for certain of what was happening at that time, and I believe there is no record on this, I tend to agree that it is a sort of mutation. Maybe it was a weak black color, or maybe it was already a strong black color in its first occurence, and somebody in China noticed that. Then that breeder did selective breeding until he (or some generation later) got a really black telescope-eyed fish. The history must be around that line. What triggered the mutation? This we do not know.

Nowadays we have some breeders still perfecting black ryukin or black orandas. This shows that the black color was not incorporated early into other types of fish with caudal fins. Their black coloration now may be achieved through some cross breeding with that panda moor. Is this statements careful enough?

The second occurence of black is in lionhead. Is this correct? But, can we assume that the black coloration in lionhead is derived from cross breeding with black moor, or is it a totally different line of mutation (2nd occurence of black coloration that happen in other type of goldfish)? We do not know.

(sorry, I must start for the office. I will continue this later ...)
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Post by LauLanChu » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:38 am

Thanks, yes, black moor, why a moor to start off with black. History could have been erased. Let me do a search to see any lead.
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Post by hermanto » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:40 am

I assume that the mutation of color into black happened from a wild/primitive colored fish, not from a red/red white fish. So, the black moor must come from a wild/primitive colored telescope eye, not from a red or red white telescope eye. But this is interesting. Why should some one at that time still kept a wild colored fish? I always believe that the earliest mutation of goldfish is the color (from wild color into orange), and it happened in a single tailed fish. Then the second mutation is in the tail shape, mutating from singe tail into four lobes tail like we have now. Then the third step of mutation is in the shape, with telescope eyed as probably the oldest occurence. So, at the time history had telescope eye, the trend was to keep and breed colorful goldfish. Why should someone still kept a wild colored telescope eye at that time? For what value?

It is easier to believe that the black color occured first in single tail goldfish, for at that period of time, the keeping of wild/primitive color fish was more reasonable. But, we do not see those single tail black fish nowadays. Even black comet is a recent development, not a strain that comes of old. So, I think it is safe to say that those single tailed fish never existed or at least never become the mother of black moor.

I think so far I have failed to construct the logical history of black fish :( I believe that the first black fish is black moor. But if it should come from wild/primitive color telescope eye, I do not see any reason why should people at that time keep those wild telescope eyes while they already have colorful telescope eyes. If black color was to occur in single tail goldfish, why dont we see any trace of that nowadays?

Concerning lionhead, the question remains: is black lionhead a result of crossbreeding breeding between lionhead and black moor, or is it a result of another line of mutatin from wild colored lionhead?

Aside from what was actually happened, we have a black lionhead which was not so black, as we frequently see now in Chinese black ranchu, as though it is an unfinished breeding program. The black color is most intense after tanning, but quickly fade if put indoor. And some eventually mutate into orange color.

Compared to Thai black ranchus, which do not mutate into other color, is the black pigmen in Chinese black ranchu a different type of black pigmen, or is it only differ in intensity, or is it occur in different layer?
LLC said “Black ranchu of Thai has layers of coated black.” Does this mean that the black color occured in different layer of scale and not just a merely of pigmen intensity in the same layer of scale? If so, how come the pigmen occupy the different layer? It is hard for me to accept that “tanning” process can achieve this. Tanning might intensify the pigmen, but it might not be able to move the pigmen into different layer. Am I right?

And is the “layer of coated black” as seen in black ranchu occurs somewhere else? Is it different or the same from the coated black in black moor? (I really do not know the answer). If it is the same color behavior with the black moor, is it possible that the Thai black ranchu is a cross with black moor somewhere in history? We should take into account the fact that early Thai black ranchus also had a longer and more floppy tail and the shape and the wen is far away from the japan-originated Thai SVR.

Ok, so far of what I know and do not know and speculate. Now some more questions and reasoning:

1. Is blue oranda a varian mutation directly from a wild/primitive color fish, or is it a mutation from a black fish? And how does it occur? How can we now make a blue from a wild, or from a black? (or from a red/red white fish – though I dont think has a chance).

2. LLC said “Black of panda is temporarily baby black and in actual fact is a white fish.” What do you mean by “white fish?” Is it defined as a fish that will eventually turn into all white? Is a white ranchu (originated from red and white) also in the same category of “white fish?” If so, why does its color behave differently from panda telescope’s color? Is there a different between this white and that white, and what is it?

3. In my current breed of panda telescope, I notice that the fries have two different color since they are 1cm long. Some of the fries are of wild/black baby coloration (or maybe chocolate) – which I dont know what will they be. Some have the “bluer” coloration, but deeper than the blue oranda coloration. I believed this “bluer” baby is what will become the black and white (or totally white) fish. Some have a mixed between the bluer color and the chocolate. So, it is wrong to say that panda is temporarily baby black – for the color is not a wild/baby black color, but “bluer” than that.

4. Another observation is that: some of the pandas, about 8 or 9 months now, do not develop the white coloration at all. They stay in that bluer color, though the color is deeper than blue oranda coloration, but cannot considered as black as in even Chinese black ranchu nor is it a wild/primitive color. So, if the definition of white fish is a fish that will eventually become white, I question that definition. And also, that definition will consider the possibility of stabilizing the black and white color as totally impossible – an idea which I like to try.

5. My main question is how to create a panda telescope from a black moor?

6. And how to incorporate that black and white coloration into other type of goldfish, ie: ranchu?

Thank you :)
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Post by LauLanChu » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:42 pm

Wow, long and good analysis. Indeed as shown in this famous chart black moor is derived from a red fish, unless we want to dispute the validity of the chart. The black moor black is pretty stable due to its long history of stabilization, I supposed. Someone must be interested in black fish at that time, but why a moor got to ask the creator. lol
A white fish is simply a fish without any colour pigmentation, be it being shiny or matt. So a fish losing its coloration due to poor keeping can also resulting in a white fish. Remember someone ever mentioned here white is the ultimate colour that a fish will reach, presuming it never pass on prematurely.
As for different hue of black resulting in different coloration like grey, bronze, blue, copper, brown....I guess is just mixture of different intensity of black perhaps with background of white or other colour, and its black colour situtation also important, on surface of scale, within scale, below or even below the scale in the skin flesh. Complex.
As for black ranchu which we could not even find in the chart, I supposed it is a pretty new breed. My guess is Thai ranchu originated from Chinese black ranchu or calico, with some further enhancement of black. That is the reason the black is pretty unstable.
Now the black coating is interesting. See that the black ranchu is coated black and a scratch will see pealing exposing its underlying scale of true colour. As said this black coating looks artificial and will make the fish looks matt. Underlying could be of any other colour like black, grey, red, white....So how is this come about I am not very sure.
I suppose we could get a pretty stable B/W fish by crossing a black and a white fish.
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A black coated ranchu with underlying gold colour. Is this similar to the blackie we used to see?
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Post by hermanto » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:58 pm

Thanks LLC.

I have tried several times to mate black ranchu with white ranchu (or red white ranchu). The occurence of black and white is: zero. No chance at all.

Currently, I mate the panda telescope eye with redwhite ranchu, hoping that there will be "bluer" color whatever the shape. And the noticeable occurence of that "bluer" color in the almost two thousand offsprings is: zero. (the fry is still 1.5cm long now)
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Post by LauLanChu » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:19 pm

Maybe you should try using the above chart, study the arrows carefully. Those that created by connected arrows are through crossing, and those that created by single arror is through natural mutation by chance. Some colour we might just cannot get if no mutation occurs. I look at the chart seems that alot of new colours are cross back to Wakin with a strong wild GF gene. Perhaps can give you some clue.
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Post by nygold » Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:55 am

This is very interesting I would like to make pandas or tri-colors I don't think the problem is the black I think it's the white. If you take 2 red fish and mate them you'll get a handfull of whites but if you mate those whites you'll get mostly reds and red/whites. I think you have to start with whites and keep breeding whites to whites until you get a high percentage of white offspring. Then when you get the whites become dominant then cross with a black moor. I could be way off with this I'm just thinking out loud.

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Post by LauLanChu » Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:56 pm

Panda black is pretty weak as eventually it will turn to white. So how to stablize the black of a panda in white base in question. Just thinking open and speculating. We could get R/W pretty easy and colour quite stable. Could it be Red and White are dominant gene, and both has equal chance of existence. When comes to Panda where we trying to create Black and White, could it be White being dominant gene and Black being a recessive gene and with the presence of White, Black could not exist or unstable as being dominated. In other words we may not able to get a 'permanent' panda as we cannot turn a gene status.
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Post by hermanto » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:25 pm

LLC, do we have any information to determine the authority of the chart? I mean, do we know who made the chart and when?

Since our discussion is about black coloration, I studied the part of demekin, from aka demekin, through a single line, into sanshoku and kuro demekin. If I am not mistaken, in our terms, aka demekin is a red telescope eye. Then through natural mutation by chance, it developed into sanshoku demekin (with my emphasize in the occurence of transparent scale, be it with five color or three color) and black demekin. I think this is an over simplification of the matter, and there is a chance to be wrong.

notes: there is a "calico" fish in the chart, but it does not look like a calico to me.

1. Oversimplification: In my understanding and confirmed by my experience, it is just not possible to "get" a transparent scale fish and black fish from a red fish. Even when it is said to be by chance. I tend to say, there is no chance without any crossbreeding. In fact, it is the other way around that happen: we can get a red fish from a black fish, and even a red fish from transparent scale offsprings, but never the other way around, except that the fish has been introduced somewhere in its lineage into the transparent scale or black coloration. So, in my opinion, the truth is this: there is no straight line from aka demekin into sanshoku or kuro demekin. A straight line is just an oversimplification.

2. An error: It is more possible that a black fish is a mutation directly from a wild color, enhanced through selective breeding. So, there are only two chances here: First, a huna was mutated into black, and someone was trying to inject this black coloration into aka demekin, and after so many years, eventually developed a kuro demekin. Second, someone was weird enough to cross a wild huna (not black huna like above) with aka demekin, probably to ease the already saturated genetics as a result of inbreeding, and it resulted in a wild color demekin, which was then being developed into kuro demekin (black). Those are the only two possible avenues, in my opinion. So, either a black fish existed before or seperately from the aka demekin, or a black fish existed after the wild color demekin. There cannot be a direct line from aka demekin into kuro demekin.

Also, about the sanshoku demekin, I tend to believe there is already a transparent fish before or separate from the aka demekin. The chart shows that a transparent scale demekin (sanshoku here) is a direct mutation from aka demekin, and it become the first transparent scale fish in the chart, which later on being injected into other types. There is a possibility of error here, since it is impossible to get a transparent scale from a red fish. It is easier to believe that the calico coloration existed separately from the aka demekin and then injected later on into aka demekin to produce sanshoku demekin. And where does the transparent fish come from? Only history knows. In Koi's world, we have doitsu, that is, the scale-less fish. It is different from the transparent scale fishes we have in Goldfish world. But doitsu was not a mutation of koi found in Japan. Its ancestor already existed in Germany - carps without scale - and that trait was then injected into koi. Might it be the same case in goldfish, except that we have no trace of the ancient transparent scale fishes?

This is the reason to say that there is a probability that the chart is wrong. (It is still a probability though).
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Post by hermanto » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:30 pm

Thanks Nygold,

the problem, in my perception, is the relationship between the black and the white. They just do not want to mixed. The only popular occurence is only in panda telescope. And when we try to cross other type of white fish with black, the color just do not want to mix. I have tried to purify the white until F2 (still have red whites), but never goes further than that. The reason is that it is frustrating enough to see lots of whites in your ponds, and it discourages us to go on further :) But yes, if everything else fail, why not give it a try?
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Post by LauLanChu » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:30 pm

Some interesting discussion for your ref. Also mentioned by our good old steve (bekko) (unfortunately we have lost him in this forum after the plateform migration) this is a Japanese chart created in 1908. Validity will depend on his knowledge and you could be right.
To highlight also something interesting on this site mentioned is goldfish is tetraploid, means to say is a complex creature.
http://www.goldfishkeepers.com/forum/sh ... .php?t=730

Well alot of variety are created from history that really puzzle me. How is pearl scale being created, how is red cap evolved from oranda, how bubble eyes come about, how is Jikin came from Wakin.....

For the black or matt telescope, it could happen through a mutation phase when certain environment change, as triggered by the normal fish trying to mimick the environment to camouflage to protect. Or it can even happen when fish delay or never shed its baby black....just wild thoughts. In goldfish, we will never know and up to us to speculate.
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Post by hermanto » Wed May 04, 2011 11:49 am

This is the picture of the fish today :)

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